Posted by: Andy | May 27, 2008

politics lesson for the year: avoid pastors?

Seriously, because if you dig hard enough, you can find most of them saying something stupid.  Not that Obama or McCain couldn’t have chosen better – it’s not hard to find either of their relevant pastors saying something not-media-smart.  Of course there is a slight difference in that Obama actually attended Wright’s church for years, whereas McCain just went groveling/ass-kissing after Hagee’s endorsement to shore up his faith-appeal among the religious voters out there.  Which is worse? I don’t know.  It seems like Obama at least comes from a legitimate perspective as far as courting the religious goes.  I don’t know if he’d want Hagee’s type of religious person though…

It is amusing how long it took McCain to reject Hagee’s endorsement (the 22nd).  He said things about Catholics and Gays but what finally broke the McCamel’s back…calling the Holocaust the will of God (which I think, technically certain branches of Christianity have to believe this, but I guess that’s irrelevant for the moment, although it does lead to interesting discussion I’ve had many times over the years about predestination/will of god/freewill/structure of time).  So, anti-Jewish sentiment is political poison, but anti-Catholic, anti-gay is ok.  At least the Catholics know how important they are to McCain;  I’m pretty sure the gays already know how they stand with Republicans in general.

Hah, and it looks like McCain had to reject another Pastor’s endorsement (see link at end of linked entry) later that day.  Hilarious!

Seriously John, maybe you should stop looking for people to make you look good, and just not be such a flip-flopper.  You know, try and make yourself look good on your own.  Because it doesn’t look like the endorsement thing is working out.  Although, I hear David Duke is always open to being courted for an endorsement.  You know, if you want that really hardcore religious white segment of the population.



  1. Wait.
    Where did you get the impression that Christians had to/did believe that the holocaust was the will of God?!?! Are you serious?

  2. It depends on what you believe about predestination/will of god/free choice and relationship between the 3. I’m not sure I have the energy to go into it on a blog, but maybe sometime in real life when I’m awake.

  3. Maybe we shouldn’t use academic definitions for Christianity then. Christians could nowhere in scripture defend something like the holocaust as being God’s will. It happening and God willing it are two separate things. And Christianity is the opposite of predestination. If God made his will reign supreme, there wouldn’t be so many people willfully misrepresenting Him.

  4. I’m not sure the definition has anything to do with this.

    The folks who were the subject of the post themselves claimed to be Christian. Sure, maybe other Christians wouldn’t consider them “Christian”, but they probably feel the same way about such and such. From the outside, they just look like different flavors of the same thing.

    There are a couple branches of Christianity that believe in predestination. There are several interpretations of it that allow for free will. The wiki entry has some fancy names for some of them. I don’t think I’m using it in the simple, straightforward manner that you think I am.

    IIRC it was a discussion topic from my church going days, and that was a fairly mainstream assembly of god/pentecostal/charismatic type thing. Now, that doesn’t mean it was church doctrine/dogma/whatever Christians call the accepted tenets of their sects, I forget. It just means it came up from time to time, and was something we debated/discussed. Because it all boils down to the Bible right? And how you interpret it.

  5. It’s not up to us to interpret the Bible but no one who isn’t actually striving to be Christian will understand what that means. And I don’t define Christianity, God does. But clearly having discussions where one of us is using wikipedia to gain understanding isn’t the right forum for such a discussion. 😛 You know I love you.

  6. Well. I wasn’t using anything to gain understanding, I was using it to simplify/illustrate a statement I was trying to make about alternate interpretations of the will of God as pertaining to free will and point out that “serious” thinkers have done the same legwork that my friends and I used to do. And probably did it better – so reading them may be more educational that me attempting to rehash old debates.

    I’m not sure how God would be the definer for Christianity either, as it’s just one of many labels applied to a large subset of his self-claimed followers. It’s a human term, for a human creation. So the first use of the term in the Bible is Acts 11:25-26 right (and it looks like the other usages of the term don’t ascribe any magic meaning to it)? It doesn’t say who is doing the labeling, but I seriously doubt it was the voice of God that boomed out “Hey, ya’ll are Christians. How’s them apples?” (In Greek or whatnot of course since they were in Tarsus).

    In a general sense, sure the Bible as the word of God is telling the followers how to be “Christians”, but in the specific sense, it is not. If people knew exactly what the Bible was saying they wouldn’t need pastors/teachers/preachers to spell it all out for them. So to me, what a Christian is, seems up for discussion no matter what angle you look at it from.

  7. Yeah. It’s like speaking two different languages here.

    Anyway, this could go on forever so let me just say a) God is the definer because He offers salvation (through His son, doy) and lays out the principles to live by. Ie, if you are not living thus, then you are not. It’s not really something you can claim and define except to other human beings and who cares about that. And … yeah, we’ll just end with that one. Feel free to email me (any interested party) but I’m sure you’re exhausted of salvaging my comments from your spam filter and having the neverending conversation. So, yeah. Jesus loves you.

  8. Most of the conversation of value are neverending, that’s how people learn and grow. and shit.

    PS. I got an email back from the akismet people today saying you should be fixed…soooo we shall see eh.


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